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tv   Newsnight  BBC News  June 11, 2018 11:15pm-12:01am BST

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the acrimony of the last 70 years — wars hot and cold — could end when, at 23m uk time, president trump and supreme leader kim meet to make peace. but america, as her secretary of state pompeo cautioned today, has been fooled before. that have come to nothing in its dealings with north korea. the country has been hugged close — jimmy carter and madeleine albright were two who tried — and been banished as a far flung axis of evil, memorably by george bush. trump's diplomacy seems to follow no rational rules but he may have found a like—minded personality in the character of kim jong—un. could that be enough to make this time a success? our diplomatic editor, mark urban, is here. talk us through today, what has it looked and felt like? you used the marriage metaphor, i was thinking of those muhammad ali fights in the 70s promoted as the rumble in thejungle and the thrilla in manila and this is the singapore sizzler. we saw the prizefighters earlier, donald trump sparring with the singaporean prime minister, i think we can see him arriving. he was out there with the singaporean prime minister,
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trying to create a sort of precondition about when he was going to leave. i will be leaving at the end of events tomorrow, tuesday. then kimjong—un, clearly a much rarer sight, he went out and about and was more or less in public, creating some excitement. his camp suggested that he would go before that, in the afternoon! they are both trying to appear like they are not desperate. it is teenage dating! it is jostling i suppose, pre—match. if they have that bit of the diplomacy finished, the end, what about the substance in the middle? do you see a realistic chance of this leading where they think it will? mike pompeo said that it has been well prepared and they are ahead of where they thought they would be
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in it so is quite possible we will see some grand sounding declarations tomorrow, on ending the state of war perhaps, possibly on denuclearisation but what is unlikely is for a fully worked out verification method, a timetable and road map, getting rid of nuclear weapons and rolling back sanctions, i think that is unlikely and that would be remarkable if it were to appear but instead i think some grand, eloquent language, declarations, but then a long, hard look at what has really been achieved. we will talk about in that a moment with our guest in the us. on the eve of the summit, we wanted to understand what makes north korea's leader tick. john sweeney has spent time in the secretive state. he's spoken to others who have seen the regime first hand,
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to shed light on the kim dynasty and the country itself. when donald trump sits down with kim jong—un, he is meeting the heir to the world's most powerful hereditary monarchy. the kim dynasty was founded by the current ruler‘s grandfather. kim il—sung was a fat, jolly killer, the spitting image of his grandson. for more than three years battle has raged in this troubled land taking its toll. kim il—sung started of the korean war which killed three million and blamed it on the americans. the united states ended up dropping more bombs on north korea than they did on nazi germany. a fact of history that has not been forgotten. overfive decades, north korea's political religion changed from stalinism to kim il—sung—ism through brainwashing that shaped everyone‘s lives. jee now lives on the edge
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of the moors near manchester but she was born in north korea and brought up to adore kim il—sung and his son, kimjong—il. it was notjust north korea
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and who fell under the spell of the kim dynasty. the romanian dictator nicolae ceausescu visited north korea twice in the 1970s and came away, one adviser said, quite mad. this is mass adulation on the scale of a nation state. when i went to the kingdom under cover five years ago i found myself bowing before a statue of kim the first. other foreigners went to north korea
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to learn the art of killing. we caught a flight from havana bound for moscow and we transferred to another plane, on the tarmac without going into the airport and we were flown to pyongyang. there were no north korean stamps in our passports or anything like that, no official record of us being in north korea. declan was among a handful of official irish republican army volunteers who went to north korea in 1988 to learn how to kill the british. part of the dynasty‘s secret campaign to ferment world revolution. every volunteer was given an ak—47 rifle, short arm and a hand—held rocket launcher. they made it clear the ammunition was very precious. a rifle round was the equivalent of a chicken.
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do you think people were free to make up their own mind about things? the people were totally brainwashed into believing that the great leader was the most important thing in their lives, absolute adoration. a mixture of brainwashing, out and out love. the ira men were not alone in the terrorist training camp. robert mugabe's special troops were in the compound next to us, we used to communicate with them when no one was looking. there were hundreds of them. kim il—sung died in 1994 and the dear leader, kim jong—il, took over, the first time power was handed down from father to son in the communist regime. kim ii lacked his dad's charisma but made up for it in cunning. jee was a teacher, raising a new generation in kimist thought
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control when something happened that shattered her faith. famine. no one knows how many died in the famine because no one counted. maybe as many as 4 million people perished. and many of those were children. how many dead bodies did
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you see with your own eyes? but if you were a guest of the palace, life was wholly different. italian pizza chef ermanno and his wife marilu were invited to north korea to cook for kimjong—il at his court at the height of the famine. newsnight caught up with the italians at the summer
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palace of the venetian doge, as you do. and then came a royal visitor. he and his wife were in a palace beach resort taking
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orders by semaphore. in their cocoon they thought nothing of the famine but they did catch one glimpse of unrest. but when they asked what was going on, the driver refused to answer. fear of economic collapse of a second famine drives the regime to the conference table to talk about giving up its nuclear shield. the very thing that prevents its other nightmare for regime change.
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even back in 1988, when the official ira man was in north korea, the regime was fixated on how to defend itself against nuclear attack. my one abiding memory of korea was the sound of explosions, morning, noon and night. they were tunnelling into mountains outside pyongyang because they had plans to move the entire population inside, inside the mountain, in the event of a nuclear attack. as it sounds crazy but it's true. she ended up safe in manchester. does she think kim jong—un will give up his nukes? i don't believe koreans will ever give up their nuclear weapons. that is what gives them the edge.
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that points to kim the third keeping his nukes, whatever sweeties donald trump might offer. that is john swinney with a fascinating look at the dynasty itself. joining me now from boston is gary samore, who was president 0bama's coordinator for arms control and weapons of mass destruction. that tells them, i guess, some of that sense of the nationalism and the pride that is behind kim's every move. trump has made this look relatively easy. what do you think prevented barack 0bama from getting to this? he had eight years. well, of course, president 0bama, just like president bush and president clinton, did negotiate an agreement with the north koreans talk limit their nuclear
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and missile activities. unfortunately, the north koreans remarked on the agreement with president 0bama and he shifted to a strategy of economic pressure on north korea. —— reneged on the agreement. president trump has also pursued a similar strategy and is now the north koreans have indicated their willingness to meet, whether that produces real nuclear disarmament, of course, remains to be seen. is your suggestion that donald trump will end up in the same place as 0bama? 0bama put this in a box marked ‘too difficult‘. i think the summit will produce a general agreement between trump and kim jong—un to the ultimate objective of peace and prosperity on a nuclearfree korean peninsula. the question is whether this subsequent negotiations can produce concrete
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steps to limit and eliminate north korea's nuclear weapons. i agree with your other guest that kimjong—un has no intention of giving up his nuclear weapons, but he might be willing to accept limits beyond the current freeze on testing. for example, a limit on additional production, weapons of long—range missiles. and the big challenge for the us is how to verify such limits and what to give north korea in return. these negotiations will take months, if not years, to complete, so we will not know right away whether it will produce any tangible results. you know the process of weapons decommissioning and what comes next. how would you see that happening, if they do make an agreement, would you need weapons inspectors, would you need to have the hans blix character, with north korea agree to that? well, i think the first step which the north koreans have always balked at is at fault and complete declaration of their stockpile.
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how many nuclear weapons that they have, how many missiles do they have, where and what production facilities? the north koreans have never been willing to make such a declaration. and they have never been willing to allow inspectors outside of their declared nuclear facilities at pyongyang nuclear centre. the start of any process, whether it leads to a freeze, or elimination, is to have a complete set of knowledge about the stockpile production facilities. and i think that will be a test that we will have to wait and see whether north korea... in history, there are very few examples of denuclearisation ending well. nelson mandela did it in south africa, a regime change, but libya as an example clearly did not go according to plan for gaddafi, asjohn bolton reminded us a couple
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of weeks ago. i think south africa is the best example of the country, a government that made a genuine decision to give up its nuclear weapons. and co—operated with the international atomic agency to verify that took place. but it is very different when it is a different regime, it is very different to seeing this dynasty, the son of the son of a son stopping something that whole country has been built upon now. i see no evidence that kim jong—un has made such a fundamental decision. as i said, he might be willing to accept limits which of course is valuable and important, we would like to see north korea's nuclear and missile programme limited in some respect, and a diplomatic process is better than going to war. i am in favour of trump's policy of starting a diplomatic process, ijust don't think it will end up in elimination of weapons. it is great to talk to you, thank you very much indeed.
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tomorrow has been called the brexit showdown. now, steady yourselves. there may not ultimately be too many fireworks. the house of commons is staging crucial votes on the detail of the legislation. and until recently, it looked like mps would overturn key parts of the prime minister's brexit plans — possibly threatening to bring her down. now, with hours to go, it looks as if the troops have rallied around her. and tonight, a new amendment suggestion on the customs union is in play. 0ur political editor, nick watt, is here. what's going on? love does appear to be in the summer air in the conservative party! it is dangerous to make predictions, but it does appear a sizeable chunk of pro—european tories have decided now is not the time to defeat theresa may and there are two reasons for that. they want to give the prime minister of free hands to negotiate at the european summit later this month and it would look bad if she had been defeated. the second thing gives some separate brexit legislation will return next month so a chance.
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why not take a look at the votes we will be getting in parliament this week? as you were saying, tonight, the remain supporter nicky morgan has joined forces with brexiteers like jacob rees—mogg in a coalition to agree new wording to help theresa may a defeat on a customs union. —— avoid defeat. and what their amendment says, it simply calls on the prime minister just to set out the step it will take to forge a customs arrangement which funnily enough is government policy. also on wednesday, the government will be looking to knock out house of lords amendment that would require the uk to join the european economic area which is effectively basically being a member of the single market. —— a house of lords amendment. the labour party, the labour leadership does not support that, so the government should be fine on that. the really interesting one tomorrow afternoon, this is potentially a much tighter vote on this meaningful vote. and this is the house of lords is essentially saying that
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parliament should have a decisive role in directing the government if the brexit deal is voted down and there are remainer tories tonight saying they really do think they could defeat the government, but then there is a larger bulk of pro—europeans who say, let's be helpful. —— house of lords. -- house of lords. at this point, do you think theresa may has united her party? i think theresa may has united her party until the end of the month because injuly, that separate brexit legislation is going to come back, the customs and the trade bill, which is going to give pro—europea ns chance to table amendments on, you guessed it, the eea and the customs union. but before those votes take place, the government wants to publish its white paper which will have its ideas for the end state of the customs relationship and talking to somebody
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tonight who knows the mind of theresa may, they say they think that will be a new version of the technology based maximum facilitation idea with a very, very, very long lead—in. probably way beyond the planned december 2021 which, of course, they will not be saying that now, that is three years away. thank you very much. this week, of all weeks, the pressure rests on conservative mps, who must choose whether to support their prime minister if it goes against their constituents' wishes and their own better judgement. one of those who rebelled and was labelled a mutineer by the brexit supporting press was dominic grieve, former attorney general. hejoins me now. and also here is andrea jenkyns, who stepped down this month as a pps, so she could fight for brexit. welcome to you both. dominic grieve, do you think this is going your way now? i certainly think things are moving in a direction i find from the prime minister sensible. let me also say, i may have been a saboteur last december
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but the amendment which i crafted and which got carried in the house is now widely accepted as being sensible. which goes to show what happens when you startjust calming things down and looking at the reality. tomorrow's vote and wednesday's vote have been massively overhyped. there is no doubt, a threat to the prime minister, even if she were deflated, there are no threats, this is a process of taking complex legislation through parliament. has it been easy for you in terms of what you have chosen to do, you have had no sleepless nights? i have had plenty of sleepless nights, i always worry, particularly if i find myself in a difference of view with my party. i am delighted the customs union has been resolved, there are still outstanding issues. the meaningful vote remains an issue of difficulty. but i would urge my colleagues in the party to look very carefully at what the differences are on this issue because i think they are in fact rather small. and i have tabled this evening
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a fresh amendment which i think has the capacity to bridge the gap. and actually, to be acceptable to the government. and i hope very much the government will look at that because it provides a solution which would satisfy everybody. what would you have done without this amendment, would you have abstained or voted against it? i don't know if the amendment will be accepted but the customs amendment, i might well have done. the meaningful vote seems to be the sticking point. if it is not accepted? where will you... i will have to consider very carefully tomorrow is my own suggestion does not work, i might well vote against the government, yes, i have made that quite clear to the government. whether that is successful or not, i don't know, but it is worth bearing in mind that the government were to lose on the meaningful vote, it is not in some way the end of the prime minister's policy. it is not as if brexit will not happen on the 29th of march. this was about a system
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to ensure that parliament has a say in the process, particularly in the event —— the event of something going wrong with what the prime minister is trying to achieve. you are saying that to brexiteers within your own party? i say that everybody who bothers to ask me. one of the difficulties we have is at the moment, people have got so brittle about brexit that the moment people start to suggest they might have a differing view, immediately, people say, they're traitors, they're saboteurs, they‘ re mutineers. that is not the case. i continue to be the view that is brexit is a mistake. but i want to try to get the best outcome, notwithstanding that. can i gently suggest that you are less brittle, or people less brittle when they feel that it is going their way? i don't know, i don't think that... if you think things are moving in the right, sensible direction, you will be happier
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and more comfortable. and at times, some of the tensions within the party, just as the labour party has tensions, in this difficult environment, bound to create difficulties, but if people just pause and listen to what other people are saying, they will realise that in fact, most of us are working in similar directions. after all, if i had not wanted brexit to happen and i have wanted to divide a result of the referendum, the time to do that was the triggering of article 50 and hardly a conservative mp did that. i would love the public to change their mind, that is a different issue. as an issue, my task is to deliver the best brexit possible and support the prime minister as much as i can, but the issue is so important in the context of our country that there will be times i may express a view which is different from the leadership of my party. and when you do that, you don't want to be called a mutineer or a saboteur, that was the phrase
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the daily mail used against you. is your sense that in what will become a post paul dacre are that politicians like you will have an easier time in the press? i don't mind having a difficult time being vilified, but it does not help rational debate to have that background sound going on which raises temperature. i only have to look at my mailbag to see people writing in to me making suggestions that i am trying do something which is1 million miles removed from reality. and that is a problem. the problem is in a democracy, you have to keep the temperature down, to listen to what the other side is saying. thank you very much. andrea jenkyns, i know you have just come from borisjohnson‘s jinx this evening. what was the mood like amongst the brexiteers?
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—— drinks. let's take it back to the 1922 committee meeting, which dominic was also in, it was full to the brim and it was a real buzz. there were brexiteers and remainers and cabinet ministers and we were talking with a unified voice, the most unified i've seen since the referendum. were you frisked at the door?! did anything come out of that one? no, it was very positive and i'm quietly confident that the next two days, we will defeat the lords amendments. back to your question about boris drinks, all secretary of states have them. it happens to be boris's tonight. it is the same positive message, that we must unite behind the prime minister because if we do not we will weaken our hand with the eu.
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the question the public will have in their minds somewhere, if everyone is in agreement, what is the question? because when you see people that you know lean strongly towards the remainer argument, saying it is all going to be fine and we have all calmed down, do you think, great, they are on board or what is going through their mind? i think with this next hurdle, so to speak, that we've come together. dominic and myself are both very passionate about this subject but on different sides of the fence, but there is always common ground, as has been spoken about. the future amendments that will be coming in in the next month, that is another important time but ultimately,... it's more than important. it's crucial. the sword of damocles is still hanging over her in terms of the trade thought of the important thing to remember, crucially, both dominic and i. last year we stood on the manifesto which promised to deliver brexit. we will deliver brexit that 17.4 million people both voted forand i'm sort of sick, to be honest, of people talking down our country.
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it's about time we had a positive vision for our country. we appreciate the positivity but to be fair, and not to be naive about this... it is true that the only weapon the banister at is to walk out of negotiations but she will not do that because it means no transition period orfor david davis to be put in sole charge brexit which i think the erg would be happy to see now. it is that what has brought you to this brink? the first strong card is the 17.4 million people and we must never forget the will of the people. whichever side of the fence we are oi'i. the second thing, £38 billion, we need to show the eu that we are prepared to walk away, that's negotiations, we had to start playing hardball and show that we are prepared to walk away because our future is in our own hands. thank you very much.
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italy refused, malta refused and this evening, spain's new prime minister stepped in to offer help. at stake, the lives of 629 migrants aboard a ship stranded in the mediterranean, their number including scores of children and some pregnant women. the new populist, anti—migrant government in italy was true to its election promise — refusing to offer respite to those stranded. the new populist, anti—migrant government in italy was true to its election promise — refusing to offer respite to those stranded. this morning, the interior minister salvini, of the league party, tweeted ‘victory' after two days of confrontation. so has the old order of europe started to shift, and could we be about to witness a summer of renewed friction over how to handle the flow of migrants? we'll discuss that in a moment. first, though, let'sjust check in on what has happened to migrant numbers since the major exodus began three years ago. in 2015, nearly one million migrants and refugees came to europe by sea. in recent years, new arrivals have gone down significantly — mostly due to cooperation deals the eu has struck with libya and turkey to reduce flows.
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just consider new arrivals in the first five months of 2017 — they totalled fewer than 60,000. that has more than halved in 2018. in the first five months of this year, around 27,000 migrants and refugees crossed the med to europe. joining me now is vicki hawkins, executive director of msf uk, whose ship, aquarius, came to the rescue. i guessjust stepping back, this is exactly what the italian government said they would do. you were prepared for this to happen? clearly we had been watching the political situation in italy with some concern. it has been a difficult operating environment for the last year or so with last summer the introduction of a code of conduct for boats operating on the mediterranean. even though the numbers have significantly come down? yes, absolutely, and the numbers
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have come down because of the assistance given to the libyan coast guard and what that means is that we now have many tens of thousands of people trapped in libya which we should remember is a country at war, and they are being held in a very violent... so that was the wrong move? do try to create an arrangement? absolutely, trapping people in libya, the conditions there are absolutely unspeakable. i was in libya last year and i saw the detention conditions people are being captain and it is inhumane. for european governments to be relying on libya as a buffer zone to prevent people from coming to europe is completely unacceptable. what should happen? you would have some sympathy with italian voters presumably were put in their new government to try to deal with a problem that seems to rest so much
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with italy and malta and greece? of course we absolutely understand that italy has been left to shoulder the responsibility almost alone and certainly its european partners have done very little to take their share of the responsibility so we would say undoubtably there has to be greater european solidarity intensive helping italy with the new arrivals. thank you very much for coming in. music has long been feared by authoritarian regimes as a weapon which can fuel dangerous counter cultures — a theme explored by an exhibition of forbidden records in soviet russia, which comes to britain in the autumn. at the moment, "x—ray audio" is on show in israel, and, as tom bateman discovered, dissident art is much in evidence in today's middle east. # one, two, three o'clock, four o'clock rock # five, six, seven o'clock, eight o'clock rock # nine, ten, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock rock # we're going to rock around the clock... they are images of pain and damage,
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right, and it's sort of overlaid with the sound of pleasure. this is x—ray video, a story of the insides of soviet citizens pressed with the music they secretly loved. an exhibition brought to a troubled region where its message resonates today. by the 1950s, stalin's censors had banned entire genres of music but listen carefully and you can still hear the sound of decadence drifting over the iron curtain. it was a threat from the west but an opportunity for dissidents and bootleggers in russia. underground, they copied smuggled music not onto vinyl but onto used hospital x—rays. people in leningrad after the war used a machine which you can make
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individual records with. they seem to have got hold of one of those and started to copy, copy the technology and build their own recording machines. somebody somewhere along the line had found out you could use x—ray film as a base to make records and they started to cut their own records, for themselves at first and for their friends and then increasingly for sale and it became an industry. well, that's the very first record that i found in saint petersburg five years ago. it's rock around the clock, bill haley, so late 50s, possibly early 60s it would have been made. and this is what started it all for us. it's obviously quite an intimate picture of a soviet citizen. the bootleggers faced years in prison for doing this. when the kgb caught one and put him injail, it wasn't just the bones they objected to. the press wrote that
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by spreading un—soviet music, they had robbed the people of their souls. around a million discs changed hands in the 50s and 60s but only a minority featured american rock and roll. russians wanted the forbidden sounds of their own. gypsy romance, underground folk songs seen as anti—soviet or the music of emigres who had fled the regime. it became known as music on the bone. a record might cost you a bottle of vodka. dealers paid a higher price. rudy fuchs spent his youth cutting discs. he went to jail for it. it was freedom, freedom in music. they don't like it. russian—speaking jews left the former soviet union for israel
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in their hundreds of thousands. there is an understanding audience here. and x—ray audio was brought to tel aviv, say its curators, because culture wars, music as resistance, echo in israel and the occupied territories and across the middle east today. i spoke to esra from bahrain. she doesn't want her face shown, such can be the risks of pushing forfree expression. esra runs a digital equivalent of the old bone music. then it was forbidden folk songs in the soviet union. now it can be kurdish artists in turkey who feel stripped of their indigenous identity. mideast tunes is a song sharing platform in the region where she says censorship and surveillance are the norm. we have had artists for sure who have been arrested in places like morocco and places like turkey.
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we've had kurdish artists who have been harassed, intimidated. obviously there are some times when a musician gets in touch with us and says, can you pause my profile, we have had artists for sure who have been arrested in places i don't want to delete it but pause it for this period of time. for an example during the protests in iran whenever it really escalates. here in the west bank city of ramallah, artists talk about the music industry that has struggled to develop amid the politics of military occupation and a social conservatism that can shun their genres. this is palestine music expo, an attempt to bring worldwide talent scouts to palestinian artists from israel, the west bank and gaza. musicians complain about the severe restrictions on movement that israel says it imposes for security reasons. jowan faced police investigations
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both in israel, who accused him of inciting violence with a song lyric. he was cleared after two years of enquiries. and injordan, where he was held after a concert and accused of insulting religion. there is a scene, a huge underground alternative scene in the arab world despite the restrictions and there are restrictions and they are tough. there is many taboos that you can't sing about and you have to be very smart to know how to do it and when to do it and where to do it. music seems to find its strongest voice with something to push against. one of the uk delegates here told me a vibrant underground music scene he found on his visits to moscow simply faded away after communism collapsed. even underground art ends up ossified, but the forbidden sounds keep finding new places to thrive.
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that's it for tonight. evan is here tomorrow. before we go, there are less than three hours until the historic summit and president, has been up and treating them his latest... he wrote this. more on that tomorrow. until then, good night. good evening. the weather has been stuck in a rut. it is all about to change. something very different is on the way. through the rest of this
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week, cool airfrom the north—west. then westerlies, we haven't seen those in a while. with those, a deep area of low pressure. wet and windy weather, especially in the north for wednesday night on thursday. the changes are beginning. north and north—westerly winds bringing more in the way of cloud through the night. tomorrow, it will be relu cta nt to brea k night. tomorrow, it will be reluctant to break up. cloudier than today. the best of the brightness in the west and south—west of england and wales and parts of south—west scotla nd and wales and parts of south—west scotland be further east, keeping cloud. the mid—20s. tomorrow, 21 the very best. tomorrow night, a mixture of cloud floating across the map. fairly cool. many spots in single digits. wednesday, initially, not a bad day. low pressure, something we
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have not seen for a while. high pressure to start wednesday. nice to start. cloud increasing. the odd shower. the north—west, rain in northern ireland and western scotland. strengthening wind. wednesday night, uncertainty, but heavy rain in northern ireland. strong wind. 40— 50, and possibly 60 miles per hour, courtesy of this unusually deep area of low pressure for the time of year, pushing across the north of scotland. but it will scoot off quickly. after a wet and windy start in the north, things improving. more sunshine in the day, but cool and fresh, 15—22. the end
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of the week, spells of sunshine. rain around as well. lower temperatures. after the warm weather and sunshine of late, a changes on way, with things turning more cool and then a lot more unsettled. good night. hello and a very good morning from singapore. i'm babita sharma. it's 7am on tuesday the 12th of june, just hours away from a truly historic summit meeting. and i'm rico hizon. all eyes are on this tiny city—state, where president trump and kimjong—un are finally set to meet, face to face. welcome to our special coverage here on newsday. kim's late night out — the north korean leader visits some tourist sites ahead of the big day and waves to the crowds. president trump says that the world will know soon enough whether a real deal between the us and north korea can happen. an end to conflict —
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will the talks pave the way for the korean war to be finally consigned to the past?
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